Ragamuffin: faith and works

… relationships have their ups and downs…

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ur denomination’s doctrine states: “We believe that repentance towards God, faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and regeneration by the Holy Spirit, are necessary to salvation. We believe that we are justified by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and that he that believes hath the witness in himself. We believe that continuance in a state of salvation depends upon continued obedient faith in Christ.”

The age old issue of faith and works has been discussed fervently. Recently I spoke on God’s lavish grace and the question came up about this doctrine. I believe the intent was that we have the free will to reject Jesus anytime in our lives. We have the possibility of turning from His offer of grace. I don’t think the intent was that we should be afraid of losing our salvation at every little mis-step or failure.

In Romans 4 the writings of Paul state clearly that faith saves. He also talks about works like circumcision and obeying the law. This has never really been that difficult for me on the practical level. I think balance can be a sensible thing to add to the discussion. Relationships have their ups and downs but faith and love hold them together. Eventually good deeds, (works, actions) flow from that faith and love. Are we saved by faith? Yes! As James puts it “faith without works is dead”. Adding to that faith, love and actions God’s grace in relationship with human beings is a beautiful picture of what God desires. Faith/love/actions/grace = God’s desire in our relationship with Him. “Obedience” can have a negative tone but obedience that flows from faith and flows from a loving relationship can be very positive.

Well, I won’t end the debate here but it is sufficient to say that Christ saves when faith is activated on the part of the believer which will eventually be evidenced by loving actions (see Matthew 25:32-40).

Ragamuffin appears every Monday on theRubicon. Find past Ragamuffin posts and a bio of Capt. Jay Davis here.

4 Comments to Ragamuffin: faith and works

1. Either you’re being far too generous with these doctrines or they are worded so horribly that I just can’t understand them (I’m thinking particularly the doctrine that states “We believe that continuance in a state of salvation…”).

   In my mind this doctrine is indeed implying that with every misstep your salvation is on the line. Even if, as you talked about, it speaks more to our ability to reject God’s grace then our individual actions (which I don’t totally buy) it still puts people in a place where their “state of salvation” is in question constantly. Especially within the Wesleyan tradition where God is consistently offering his grace for people to respond faithfully to in order to move towards holiness.

   If in a moment a person was to reject that grace….

   Furthermore, a question I think you might want to ask yourself when pondering this subject again is “do we rectify ourselves or does God?” Everything these doctrines state and everything you have unpacked seems to say that it’s up to us to save ourselves; God did his part and now it’s up to us.

   This is why people go crazy trying to be the perfect Christian and end up consumed by guilt. You can never do enough to deserve salvation, you just have to sit back and trust.
Dave on January 8th, 2008

2. Actually, truth be told, I figure this doctrine is functionally a pitch for “works salvation”. What it says is that you don’t have to do anything to get saved (grace and all that) but that you have to work your butt off to keep saved. That is not the actual theological intent, but the wording of this one has weathered the years well, I would say.

   Maybe unintentionally it speaks to the fact that salvation is really more of a process than a crises, that it changes and (hopefully) deepens through the journey of faith, sometimes waxes and sometimes wanes as the years pass and that it is at one and the same time something that one achieves (a gift one accepts) but also a state that one grows into and inhabits. Maybe like the difference between simply opening a door to enter a room, then further moving in some furniture and making the room your home.
Geoff Ryan on January 8th, 2008

3. “Everything these doctrines state and everything you have unpacked seems to say that it’s up to us to save ourselves; God did his part and now it’s up to us. ”

   interesting…Paul said “having begun with grace are you now completed with the law?” which basically means “if it began all with God are you going to finish it with your works.” I read the original Greek its very clear there.

   I grew up in Greece and read Greek constantly even here in Canada (if you dont use it you lose it) the word “grace” is charis which we still use daily in Greek in modern times. If I see you at my favorite restaurant and say “friend Geof ! come sit with me and let me CHARIS you a drink (a very very common greeting in Greek cafes)”
   I would be offended to no end if you thought you “had to do your part” by paying for some of it. “Your part” is to enjoy my hospitality.

   Greek is a culture and language linear in its developement from New Testament times (unlike Latin which branched out to many other languages such as Italian, Spanish, Portuguese).

   There is also a line from Socrates where friends of the philosopher use this SAME greeting with the same word (charis -grace) when they offer him food and invite him to sit and chat with them at a tavern by the agora.

   Paul knew exactly what he was doing when he used “charis” to the Greeks to indicate God’s dealings and eternal gift to men even us gentiles (in Christ no greek or jew!). There are about 17 other words he COULD have used to mean partial works “I do a) and you do your part b)” etc but he didnt.

   As an Eastern Orthodox christian we believe you are saved by faith as evangelicals say, but it needs to be a living faith (ie which really is what James meant “you show me your faith without works and Ill show you mine by my works” (reminds me of my Ethiopian computer expert friend telling a pretender “show me your programming skills without slugging code and I’ll show you mine BY slugging code bro” (ie slugging code = writing programming language)

   Grace and Peace

   Yorgos
   east york
EasternOrthodoxBrother on January 9th, 2008

4. —continuance in a state of salvation depends upon continued obedient faith in Christ—
   ==========================================================

   Isn’t this particular doctrine of the Salvation Army heretical? As written, it is salvation by ‘works’.

   “Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?”
   Galatians 3:3 NIV

   Charlie O
Charlie Oakville on July 30th, 2010

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